Curse

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotGear

Originally Posted by Riotgear
Assassins are a gank character, a type of character that has been bad for PvP in every RPG it has existed in. Gank characters are bad because their defining features are some combination of the ability to create completely one-sided fights at will, the ability to avoid fights not in their favor completely, and the ability to deny their opponents the ability to prepare for them.

If you still don't think that explains anything, reread the thread.

I read: 'ability to snare, followed by massive damage' ---> definition of gank character, maybe?

Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)?

Stormlord Alex · Dec 28, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)?

The difference is, Water and Air eles can't actually kill people with a clue outside of scrub PvP.
Spells are slow and don't really hit too hard.

Chicken Ftw · Dec 28, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The difference is, Water and Air eles can't actually kill people with a clue outside of scrub PvP.
Spells are slow and don't really hit too hard.

Yeah, I didn't see the "massive damage" part either.

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Ok, different angle: Deep Freeze followed by horrid Fire AoE spells.

Stormlord Alex · Dec 28, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Ok, different angle: Deep Freeze followed by horrid Fire AoE spells.

For that to work, the Heats would actually have to do real damage. 2 second cast spells that deal 30-something a second on 30 seconds recharge can't compare.

LightningHell · Dec 28, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I read: 'ability to snare, followed by massive damage' ---> definition of gank character, maybe?

Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)?

Sorry, I wasn't responding to anything you were saying - I skipped all the posts after the post I was quoting.

On topic, gank characters basically are...Assassins.

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Sigh, then I'll have to accept I like ganking

LightningHell · Dec 28, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quoted from wiki:

Quote:

Ganking is a type of griefing in online roleplaying video games which employ player versus player combat (especially in MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft or Guild Wars). Ganking may involve attacking another player without warning; more specifically, doing so while the targeted player is already engaged in combat with a game character, usually meaning they're distracted and/or their health has been compromised. Ganking is not considered an honourable practice in MMORPGs, since the ganker is winning a fight they might not have won in circumstances where those participating in the PvP (player versus player) combat had an equal chance of winning. Essentially, ganking involves engaging in a battle where the instigator of the fight will certainly win.

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Firstly; what you describe is not a class but a battlefield situation. The Assassin is admittedly the master of creating such a situation, but that is only just.

Secondly; I'd like to ask you to read the following article:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
After you've read the article, can you answer the following questions:
If Assassins are truly overpowered/dominating the PvP scene/whatever, wouldn't there be more people packing counters against them? And, wouldn't it be stupid NOT to play an Assassin yourself now they're all god-like?

On another note, the concept of honour in serious PvP strikes me as... odd.

LightningHell · Dec 28, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Firstly; what you describe is not a class but a battlefield situation. The Assassin is admittedly the master of creating such a situation, but that is only just.

Secondly; I'd like to ask you to read the following article:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
After you've read the article, can you answer the following questions:
If Assassins are truly overpowered/dominating the PvP scene/whatever, wouldn't there be more people packing counters against them? And, wouldn't it be stupid NOT to play an Assassin yourself now they're all god-like?

On another note, the concept of honour in serious PvP strikes me as... odd.

Yeah, I agree, the concept of honor is really...odd. Only the bolded part matters in the quoted.

What I describe is indeed a battlefield situation. A character who can create that "gank" situation is called a "ganker", hence, the Assassin is classified as a "ganker".

The Assassin has been a few notches off "godlike" now, and Warriors are much more flexible. Hence, people stopped using them in high-end PvP. This resonates with another point; this model of the Assassin simply doesn't work in real competitive play - it is either too strong or too weak.

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Assassin simply doesn't work in real competitive play - it is either too strong ..../snip

No such thing as 'too strong', right?

Stormlord Alex · Dec 28, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

No such thing as 'too strong', right?

Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged, anyone?

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged, anyone?

Don't know it pre-fix. But lemme guess: everyone was taking it, because it ruled. Cause and effect, two possible outcomes:

1. People adapt and take countermeasures
2. If that's too hard, ANet nerfs the skill - which has essentially occurred in this case

Stormlord Alex · Dec 28, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Don't know it pre-fix.

After 10 seconds, your target dies.

LightningHell · Dec 28, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

After 10 seconds, your target dies.

To be more specific, "After 10 seconds, target Guild Lord dies."

Quote:

1. People adapt and take countermeasures
2. If that's too hard, ANet nerfs the skill - which has essentially occurred in this case

"Adapt and take countermeasures" isn't something that's always good. If I have to actually waste skillslots to counter a specific or build, there's probably something wrong.

(I'm not saying that's the case here, but that's what you're implying.)

Take in mind that if Fire Magic was buffed insanely I can "take countermeasures" to a build with 5 eles. Doesn't stop it being overpowered. (Of course, this isn't the case, but you know what I mean.)

Chicken Ftw · Dec 28, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Say if you did take lots of counters to said overpowered build with 5 eles, then your opponent didn't use a single ele, well... Suddenly, you find yourself at a huge disadvantage. Build wars ftl.

Counterable does not equal balanced, and the sooner people realize this, the better.

Bobby2 · Dec 28, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To be more specific, "After 10 seconds, target Guild Lord dies."

OK that's overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

"Adapt and take countermeasures" isn't something that's always good. If I have to actually waste skillslots to counter a specific or build, there's probably something wrong.

(I'm not saying that's the case here, but that's what you're implying.)

Might be. I foreswore my self-heal (Breeze) in favour of Rigor Mortis because otherwise Rangers would all be definite no-go's. Not to mention Prot Monks. Does that mean these classes are also overpowered? IMO, no, they're just so powerful I have to take them into account when devising a build. I don't mind. I don't mind either that other classes don't seem to bother to take counters against Sins - again I say, apparently the impression is not THAT fearsome. All the easier for me!

EDIT I

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Counterable does not equal balanced, and the sooner people realize this, the better.

True, but I refer to the article I posted again: balance will restore itself. After this supposed struggle to deal with imba Sin influence, another class will arise as the 'mightiest'. When that time comes, we'll play that class, and most people will probably whine about its imba-ness here. On that note, this game has been Build Wars for as long as I've played.

EDIT II
Just felt the need to clarify again. I don't run imba wiki builds on my Sin, I take pride in devising builds myself and being effective with them. In that sense I'm a complete 'scrub'. I play the game to have fun. But in every game there are going to be WAAC-people, and what I'm saying is: you can't blame them for running something that gives them the greatest chance at success - blame the game for the existence of such a thing.

I'm still having fun, through all the Sin hatred. /win!

Ulterion · Dec 28, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

meh...

insta-gib sins should not exist but they do...

But one thing the need to do to fix sins is make [skill]shattering assault[/skill] unconditional dmg and if they do just lower the damage for each hit.

Now, you're just wishing assassins to the grave... Leave assassins alone. Their purpose is instagib and anet's slowly taking that away because more people like you (who wish assassins to equate to dirt) keep complaining. There's something called blind and snare btw... Use it, please.

LightningHell · Dec 29, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Say if you did take lots of counters to said overpowered build with 5 eles, then your opponent didn't use a single ele, well... Suddenly, you find yourself at a huge disadvantage. Build wars ftl.

Counterable does not equal balanced, and the sooner people realize this, the better.

/Agree

Quote:

OK that's overpowered.

Yup. It was hilarity.

Quote:

True, but I refer to the article I posted again: balance will restore itself. After this supposed struggle to deal with imba Sin influence, another class will arise as the 'mightiest'. When that time comes, we'll play that class, and most people will probably whine about its imba-ness here. On that note, this game has been Build Wars for as long as I've played.

There is currently no class that is the "mightiest" - if one were to try to pin that position on any class, I would suspect that class would be Warrior. If Assassins were the "mightiest" class, people would stop playing the game.

It isn't really fundamentally about "balance", when you're talking about such when relevant to stuff being "overpowered" - it's more like stuff is...for lack of a better word, uninteresting. A character that does not allow plays to be made is incredibly inflexible, and is not interesting at all for an experienced player to run.

Build Wars implies that victory relies on build. Guild Wars PvP fundamentally should not be such - for as long as I remember, it relies on the execution of your build. That is hardly "build wars".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulterion

Now, you're just wishing assassins to the grave... Leave assassins alone. Their purpose is instagib and anet's slowly taking that away because more people like you (who wish assassins to equate to dirt) keep complaining. There's something called blind and snare btw... Use it, please.

Should I point out how blatantly idiotic that statement is?

...Maybe not.

ensoriki · Dec 29, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulterion

Now, you're just wishing assassins to the grave... Leave assassins alone. Their purpose is instagib and anet's slowly taking that away because more people like you (who wish assassins to equate to dirt) keep complaining. There's something called blind and snare btw... Use it, please.

...Make a Chris Crocker video first.

It's fair enough to say use counters, that is why they exist, to stop something/negate it/prevent it.
However people shouldn't need to bring counters against something that is overpowered and unjust, as that should not exist.

Anyways, I really don't like this, It can never be balanced, too strong or to weak. You may be surprised to know (may) that having things Perfectly balanced (and I mean Perfect not somewhat) is very, very hard to do.
I would go ahead and say that there are imbalances in the core classes themselves as well.

If I look at what I find to be the most imba spikes the assassin has done.
SP and DP CAster (used Blinding surge or SoJ) dealing with them shouldn't be hard.
It shouldn't of been so difficult IMO to neutralize the SP sin to a playable and acceptable level of play.
Anyways Im sure Im ranting but umm...
Assassins aren't as Doomed people make them out to be.

Whining because you dislike(like) a class, and whining because your sure there is something wrong with it and you want to adress that are different.